After surviving a stage-four cancer diagnosis, Duke University professor Kate Bowler knew she was supposed to feel grateful. Blessed, even. But she ached for more connection and surprise, and less resentment on an ordinary day. So she went looking for joy. Not the toxic-positivity kind, but the type that sneaks in unexpectedly—a lemur sunbathing or a belly laugh at a funeral.

Spend an evening with Bowler, whose new book Joyful, Anyway insists that joy is still possible even when life refuses to cooperate. She invites us into a conversation about joy that doesn’t require pretending everything is fine. Expect laughter, honesty, and the rare relief of being told the truth: you can’t always be happy—but you can be joyful, anyway.

Bowler hosts the podcast “Everything Happens” and is the New York Times bestselling author of Everything Happens for a Reason, No Cure for Being Human, and Have a Beautiful, Terrible Day, among others.

Bowler will be in conversation with Rachel Martin, the co-creator and host of NPR’s “Wild Card,” an interview game show about life’s biggest questions.